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Old 25th May 2017, 15:23   #781
JRC67
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Well if Rashid does play he should benefit from better captaincy in particular field settings, it couldn't really get much worse for him than what Cook gave him.

Will Ali continue at 4/5? I guess if Rashid is picked then it's very likely he will but if we bring in another batsman (or continue with Buttler) then Ali could move back down the order again.
Not 100 per cent certain the narrative that Rashid's problems are solely captaincy related. Yesterday his first wicket was a long hop his second a great ball and he quite regularly has to break up his 10 overs when he is not quite getting things right. It's a bit chicken and egg is he inconsistent because captains don't trust him or do captains lack faith due to inconsistency.
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Old 25th May 2017, 17:31   #782
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Not 100 per cent certain the narrative that Rashid's problems are solely captaincy related. Yesterday his first wicket was a long hop his second a great ball and he quite regularly has to break up his 10 overs when he is not quite getting things right. It's a bit chicken and egg is he inconsistent because captains don't trust him or do captains lack faith due to inconsistency.
He beat Amla all ends up in the 3-4th over and it went for 4, the long hop wicket evens that out.

Probably the only ball from an English spinner that beat a Saffer batsman.
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Old 25th May 2017, 18:06   #783
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He beat Amla all ends up in the 3-4th over and it went for 4, the long hop wicket evens that out.

Probably the only ball from an English spinner that beat a Saffer batsman.
Can recall at least two occasions when Moeen got prodigious turn and beat the outside edge for no reward.
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Old 25th May 2017, 18:48   #784
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Can recall at least two occasions ...
Don't be coy ... With recall you surely must know how many more than two.
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Old 25th May 2017, 19:29   #785
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Don't be coy ... With recall you surely must know how many more than two.
OK, I can recall two instances. However due to my paying limited attention (as Moeen had won us the game by this point), it is possible that there were more occasions which slipped my notice.
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Old 25th May 2017, 19:54   #786
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He beat Amla all ends up in the 3-4th over and it went for 4, the long hop wicket evens that out.

Probably the only ball from an English spinner that beat a Saffer batsman.
I suggest you watch the highlights again as you appear to have missed parts of the live game. There were a few plays and misses including a couple Ali turned past the outside edge. Your argument would be stronger if you found facts to meet your agenda rather than changing the facts to meet it.
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Old 25th May 2017, 20:00   #787
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Not 100 per cent certain the narrative that Rashid's problems are solely captaincy related. Yesterday his first wicket was a long hop his second a great ball and he quite regularly has to break up his 10 overs when he is not quite getting things right. It's a bit chicken and egg is he inconsistent because captains don't trust him or do captains lack faith due to inconsistency.
I wasn't implying his issues are solely captaincy related sorry if it came across like that but IMO the field placements couldn't get much worse for him in tests (within reason of course!), he does bowl a long hop on "regular" occasions and yet I never saw Cook put someone at cow corner at the start of his spell. I know some will say you can't set fields for bad bowling but quite often there was a straight long-on I'd much rather that man was brought up and drop mid wicket back to cow corner for instance.

I'm not a huge fan of Morgans captaincy but at least his plans make sense (to me at least) even if I don't agree with them at times but most of the time I had no idea what Cook was trying to do with the spinners at his disposal.

We'd all like Rashid to cut down the number of rank bad balls but if it's not happened yet then it's really quite unlikely to so if you're going to pick him then just accept the fact and set fields accordingly.
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Old 25th May 2017, 20:41   #788
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I suggest you watch the highlights again as you appear to have missed parts of the live game. There were a few plays and misses including a couple Ali turned past the outside edge. Your argument would be stronger if you found facts to meet your agenda rather than changing the facts to meet it.
He wouldn't see Ali beating the bat, because his one eye would be shut either out of frank bias or because he's so upset at the very sight of Ali that he can't watch. Funny really that someone who bangs on about how little England values spin is totally unable to appreciate England playing ODIs with two spinners and a game where both of them bowled pretty well, although as often with Rashid, with the caveat that he bowled an awful lot of hit me balls.
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Old 25th May 2017, 20:53   #789
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Rashid needs to answer the 2 big questions over his bowling. As a spinner you need a certain level of consistency, which he's yet to show. As a test spinner you need to be able to bowl well at top batsmen and Rashid has a big difference in his record against top and lower order batsmen.

Rashid vs Ali isn't really a debate unless Ali fails at 5 against South Africa. My guess would be Broad and Woakes will be 2 of 4 bowlers. Ball or Wood will play. Rashid will probably play in the first test unless his confidence is shot in which case they may give Dawson a go.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with this selection postulation. If Stokes and Woakes are fit both play, as obviously would Broad and Anderson. If Anderson (or Broad) inured then agree we'd presumably play Wood or Ball. We're playing Ali anyway. Are you really then going to pick Rashid over a specialist batsman? Sure, an extra batsman does mean a lot of batting resource jammed down the order with Ali perhaps at 8 again and Woakes at 9. Still, even if you have Rashid as a much better bowler than Ali, which is a questionable proposition to me (I do think Rashid is marginally better), how much bowling do you expect from him? I could see six bowlers in India but not at home.
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Old 25th May 2017, 21:17   #790
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I wasn't implying his issues are solely captaincy related sorry if it came across like that but IMO the field placements couldn't get much worse for him in tests (within reason of course!), he does bowl a long hop on "regular" occasions and yet I never saw Cook put someone at cow corner at the start of his spell. I know some will say you can't set fields for bad bowling but quite often there was a straight long-on I'd much rather that man was brought up and drop mid wicket back to cow corner for instance.

I'm not a huge fan of Morgans captaincy but at least his plans make sense (to me at least) even if I don't agree with them at times but most of the time I had no idea what Cook was trying to do with the spinners at his disposal.

We'd all like Rashid to cut down the number of rank bad balls but if it's not happened yet then it's really quite unlikely to so if you're going to pick him then just accept the fact and set fields accordingly.
Most legendary captains had pretty good bowlers. Cook wasn't one for regularly setting unusual fields. Clive Lloyd was pretty predictable, except for his genius in just playing to the West Indies strength of 4 quicks and not playing a spinner. New Zealand captains often seem the exception and often get more out of often limited talent. I quite like Morgan as a captain but it's all taste. It will be interesting to see how Rashid does with a different captain. My suspicion is he is the Devon Malcolm of spin bowling, exciting, exasperating and poor almost in equal measures. I suspect this will be the seminal summer for Rashid and his international career and he'll either end it a regular in all formats or just fade away and not play much in the future. The truth lies somewhere between Rashid and Cook in tests and I suspect we will have a better idea come September.
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Old 25th May 2017, 22:08   #791
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I'm not sure I entirely agree with this selection postulation. If Stokes and Woakes are fit both play, as obviously would Broad and Anderson. If Anderson (or Broad) inured then agree we'd presumably play Wood or Ball. We're playing Ali anyway. Are you really then going to pick Rashid over a specialist batsman? Sure, an extra batsman does mean a lot of batting resource jammed down the order with Ali perhaps at 8 again and Woakes at 9. Still, even if you have Rashid as a much better bowler than Ali, which is a questionable proposition to me (I do think Rashid is marginally better), how much bowling do you expect from him? I could see six bowlers in India but not at home.
Long term I'd agree with your assumptions. England would like a test quality spin bowler, particularly with The Ashes coming. At the moment Ali is going to get picked as a batsman. I'm sure the selectors are going to want to resolve the Rashid question: is he a test quality spinner who bowls some bad spells or a poor one capable of bowling a few good balls. If that fails I'd guess they'd look at either an extra batsman, Ali's form would dictate whether he stays at 5 or drops to 8, or a spinner who can be relied on to bowl economically. I have a sneaking suspicion Dawson will bat at 8 in The Ashes, not because I particularly rate him but because he seems to be developing as a reliable spinner who you can throw the ball to and won't bowl many bad balls. If Ali averages 40ish against South Africa and Rashid flops I think they'll see him as a safe pair of hands for the winter. A reliable spinner would also allow them to pick an out and out quick like Woods and be confident they could manage his and Stokes work load in a game.

With suspicions over Anderson's fitness, Hameeds form and what to do with the spot Rashid occupied in India it's getting a bit tougher to pick an Ashes 11. A lot for players to play for this summer.

If it was Australia at home this summer I'd going with your line up. Bat down to 8 and 4 seamers. Ali to act as 5th bowler when needed and rustle up some old fashioned green tops. I'm sure they will select with one eye on The Ashes.
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Old 7th June 2017, 13:57   #792
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Nice little interview with him here.
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Old 7th June 2017, 14:03   #793
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He wouldn't see Ali beating the bat, because his one eye would be shut either out of frank bias or because he's so upset at the very sight of Ali that he can't watch. Funny really that someone who bangs on about how little England values spin is totally unable to appreciate England playing ODIs with two spinners and a game where both of them bowled pretty well, although as often with Rashid, with the caveat that he bowled an awful lot of hit me balls.
3 spinners - Root.
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Old 21st February 2018, 11:45   #794
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Rashid seems to think he's a better limited overs than red ball bowler too.
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Old 19th June 2018, 21:44   #795
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104 ODI wickets, equalling Graeme Swann.
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Old 19th June 2018, 22:37   #796
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104 ODI wickets, equalling Graeme Swann.
At a poorer average and significantly worse economy rate, yet in 11 fewer matches and with a better s/r. Probably says more about how the game has changed even in the 5-6 years since Swann last played than anything their relative merits as bowlers.
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Old 20th June 2018, 09:20   #797
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At a poorer average and significantly worse economy rate, yet in 11 fewer matches and with a better s/r. Probably says more about how the game has changed even in the 5-6 years since Swann last played than anything their relative merits as bowlers.

Strike rate far more important than economy !
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Old 20th June 2018, 12:28   #798
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Strike rate far more important than economy !
Really!? In one day cricket?
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Old 20th June 2018, 15:24   #799
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Strike rate far more important than economy !
Cool. That means that moeen is a far far better bowler than Ashley Giles and Phil Tufnell and only marginally worse than Swann in tests.
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Old 20th June 2018, 17:18   #800
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Cool. That means that moeen is a far far better bowler than Ashley Giles and Phil Tufnell and only marginally worse than Swann in tests.
Wasn't Moeen one of the fastest England spinners to 50 test wickets?
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