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Old 22nd July 2018, 10:44   #1981
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Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
They struggled against him in the ODI series. If we could catch he would have taken far more wickets. He opened old open scars. The previous Indian side was supposed to be good vs spin but that was proven wrong. I think that the package moeen brings is better than Bess.

I would pick leach and moeen (we could still have four seamers with stokes, woakes, Jim and broad). I would pick stokes as a batsman (even though worse average than moeen in England) so his bowling a bonus.

Good to see chin pick the one summer in four where moeen didn't do well (he did vs India, oz and saffers). Maybe he struggled against Pakistan but one in last four isn't bad.
If you want to get in to the minutiae then he also failed with the ball against Sri Lanka that year and was also far less successful v West Indies last summer. Like I say, I acknowledge he does far better at home but itís not like there are drawbacks on his home performances too.
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Old 22nd July 2018, 13:24   #1982
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So we should pick a side to win away in a home test? I don't understand this theory and never have. It is like building for this mythical future.

Is picking someone who has quit first class cricket a forward step?
Very true. Engalnd should pick a team to win the match in hand and worry about away tests when the time comes.
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Old 22nd July 2018, 13:32   #1983
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If you want to get in to the minutiae then he also failed with the ball against Sri Lanka that year and was also far less successful v West Indies last summer. Like I say, I acknowledge he does far better at home but itís not like there are drawbacks on his home performances too.
Hang on. You mean he doesn't win man of the series every single time? No way.
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Old 22nd July 2018, 16:58   #1984
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Very true. Engalnd should pick a team to win the match in hand and worry about away tests when the time comes.
I think our away record recently is bad enough to warrant worrying about them now tbh.
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Old 22nd July 2018, 20:29   #1985
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... Is picking someone who has quit first class cricket a forward step?
I thought Adil was just taking a breather from first-class cricket rather than having quit.

If Hales had been picked throughout the T20 and ODI series and had scored very heavily and majestically (which he might well have done), would you object to England considering him for the tests?
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Old 23rd July 2018, 06:53   #1986
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Hang on. You mean he doesn't win man of the series every single time? No way.
Choose the 2014 India series and last yearís SA series as being the only 2 that he has averaged sub 40 with the ball at home . Surprised Jock hasnít been all over that.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 10:46   #1987
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I thought Adil was just taking a breather from first-class cricket rather than having quit.

If Hales had been picked throughout the T20 and ODI series and had scored very heavily and majestically (which he might well have done), would you object to England considering him for the tests?
No. I think it is very different for bowlers than batsmen. Bowling 25 overs in a day is much harder work than 4 or 10. Whereas batting for longer periods can be trickier but do they bat that much longer? Plus fewer quick singles etc so not as tiring. The longest you will ever bat is about 2 hours without a break whereas they do longer in an ODI.

The thing with our spinners is that none of those in the frame have bowled much in first class cricket this season.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 10:46   #1988
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Choose the 2014 India series and last yearís SA series as being the only 2 that he has averaged sub 40 with the ball at home . Surprised Jock hasnít been all over that.
Are you ignoring his batting again? Third highest run scorer and scored crucial runs in the ashes victory didn't he?
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Old 23rd July 2018, 11:03   #1989
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No one seemed keen to do the analysis I mentioned the other day so I have taken a look. Home records of players with over 50 wickets and 1000 runs. This is the difference between batting average and bowling. A negative score means bowling that much higher. I have not included everyone. Just a few notable names.

Ready?

Shane warne -7.23
Richie benaud -6.78
Ray illingworth -4.4
Dan vetorri -3.73
Tony greig -3.27
Stuart broad -2.63
Andrew flintoff -0.89
Wasim akram 3.13
Moeen ali 5.24
Sir Richard hadlee 6.47
Ian botham 7.38
Ravi ashwin 7.45
Shaun pollock 8.03

Freaks
Imran khan 26.08
Kallis 26.12
Sobers 32.68

Decent list for moeen there isn't it.

He is a brilliant all rounder in home conditions.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 11:15   #1990
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Are you ignoring his batting again? Third highest run scorer and scored crucial runs in the ashes victory didn't he?
I'm pointing out the flaw of picking him as the only spinner and noting that there are glaring holes in the batting line-up with or without Mo that he doesn't really fix.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 11:24   #1991
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I'm pointing out the flaw of picking him as the only spinner and noting that there are glaring holes in the batting line-up with or without Mo that he doesn't really fix.
We have done well at home with no batting lower order. How many times has he rescued 150 for 5 or 6?
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Old 23rd July 2018, 11:48   #1992
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We have done well at home with no batting lower order. How many times has he rescued 150 for 5 or 6?
More relevant is his test batting record since the start of 2017. He averages 25.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 17:10   #1993
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In fact I wonder what the best batting average is for anyone who has taken say 50 wickets at under 35. Can anyone beat moeen?
Tony Greig is probably the starting point here, not Moeen.

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We have done well at home with no batting lower order. How many times has he rescued 150 for 5 or 6?
So are you saying Moeen > Leach?
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Old 23rd July 2018, 23:13   #1994
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Tony Greig is probably the starting point here, not Moeen.



So are you saying Moeen > Leach?
In English conditions with four seamers he probably is, yes
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Old 24th July 2018, 00:12   #1995
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More relevant is his test batting record since the start of 2017. He averages 25.
That’s dire.

A graph of Moeen’s test batting and bowling regression may be informative. I doubt even the Saffer implosion at Lords can save the visuals....
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Old 24th July 2018, 01:23   #1996
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Thatís dire.

A graph of Moeenís test batting and bowling regression may be informative. I doubt even the Saffer implosion at Lords can save the visuals....
Yeah it's not good but it's really no worse than the specialist batting options that have been tried in that time which is a much bigger issue than the spin bowling or lack thereof in this team. Hopefully Buttler can build on his white ball form and require one less batsman to be found.
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Old 24th July 2018, 08:36   #1997
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I’d rather pick Burns/Hildreth/Pope/Clark heck Ian Bell than settling for Mo in the upper/middle order just because he’s “no worse” than the other batting failures
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Old 24th July 2018, 11:28   #1998
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Thatís dire.

A graph of Moeenís test batting and bowling regression may be informative. I doubt even the Saffer implosion at Lords can save the visuals....
Well there would be a climb in both averages after the anomalous start before they broadly stabilised around their current level (although both improved from where they were a couple of years ago) and then a slight dip showing his Ashes performance. Not all that illuminating really, because of the nature of such statistics which make a graph of them statistically meaningless.
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Old 24th July 2018, 12:29   #1999
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In any case, with Root currently grabbing 3 Lancs wickets, why bother with bringing in another non-specialist spinner?
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Old 24th July 2018, 13:13   #2000
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In any case, with Root currently grabbing 3 Lancs wickets, why bother with bringing in another non-specialist spinner?
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