Cricket 24/7  

Welcome to the Cricket 24/7.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. There are also more forums available to members, such as the Lounge - where members chat about just about anything under the sun except cricket!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   Cricket 24/7 > Cricket Discussion Forums > England
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar Casino Articles Terms of Use Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 7th June 2020, 12:28   #1
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 26,048
The unlucky not to play more thread

I have been wondering about players who were unlucky not to play more test cricket for England than they did. Here is an XI I have come up with. These are players I remember in my lifetime and donít include the Ďunlucky to never get a test capí brigade.

1. Andy Lloyd - injured on his test debut by a Malcolm Marshall short ball.Maybe he never had the confidence again in county cricket.

2. Michael Carberry - played the short ball more competently than Cook on that tour. Never played after or in between 2010 and his test debut in Bangladesh.

3. Tim Robinson- a better player than the awful Bill Athey and seemed to suffer after failing badly in West Indies in 85-86. Probably deserved a bit more of a go.

4. Nick Compton - seemed strange he was out of the picture after being dropped post New Zealand at home 2013 up until SA away in 2016.

5. Owais Shah - weirdly dropped after a very fluent debut v India in Mumbai against Kumble and Harbhajan. Increasingly so because the next series was at home to Sri Lanka and Murali. Recalled in 2009 when in nothing like as good form.

6. Alan Wells - good player from Sussex who only got the last test v West Indies at the Oval. Pretty harsh to only get that as an outing.

7. James Foster - high class keeper who got injured after a far from dreadful showing v Aussies in 2002-3. Seemed weird he never got a go when he wasnít a dreadful batsman either.

8. Richard Johnson- a pretty respectable bowler back in 2003. Was somewhat injury prone though

9 Steve Watkin - played a few tests in the early to mid 90s and always took a few wickets. I guess he was considered too typical a county seamer to be a contender for away tours. Possibly unlucky to play a few more at home.

10. Graham Onions- decent record when he played as well. Given that some ordinary seamers got the odd test here and there a decade or so ago, he was unlucky not to play more.

11. Peter Such - did pretty well on debut v Australia in 1993. Was only a bit part player when some mediocre spinners got selected at various times during the 90s.

Some of you will have different ideas. Please have a go.
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More
Chin Music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2020, 13:02   #2
Aidan11
Harmisonesque
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Somewhere cold and wet
Posts: 42,698
David Lloyd (Bumble) only played a handful of tests despite getting a double ton against India.

Richard Ellison played in the 85 Ashes series and in one late session ripped out the top half of the order with an exceptional spell of bowling.

Simon Brown was unlucky just to play the one solitary test for England. To be fair he had been called up previously but got injured.
Aidan11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2020, 13:43   #3
tony p
County 1st Team
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: perth
Team(s): Tasmania, Kent, Australia.
Posts: 461
Here's an XI, 7 which i have seen live, the other 4 from an earlier period who should have played more.

1 Mark Benson - Just 1 Test v India in 1986, 30+21, but never got picked again. Should have played more.

2 Jack Robertson - Only 11 Tests but averaged 46, But Hutton & Washbrook were always preferred. Everything i read about him suggests he deserved more.

3 Graeme Fowler - Got picked to play when other openers, i.e Gooch etc ****ed off for money on rebel Tour of South Africa. Played 21 Tests, in his second last made 201 in Chennai, then rebel players came back, he got the boot.

4 Clive Radley - 34 when he debuted, but 2 centuries and averaged 48 from 8 Tests. A little dull i think. Never saw him play.

5 Rob Bailey - all his 4 Tests were against the West Indies, got a shocker of a decision in Antigua i think, deserved much better.

6 Doug Insole - Topped the averages in his only full series in S.A. in 1956/57, his other 4 Tests came in 4 different series, figure that out.

7 Mike Watkinson - 34 when he got his debut, should have been picked earlier. Very solid citizen.

8 Chris Read - Always impressed me when i saw him, england selectors thought otherwise, just 15 Tests, should have been at least 50.

9 Martin Bicknell - Maybe because he wasn't express he got less than his due, but utterly reliable and could bat very well too.

10 Jon Lewis - see above, but not as good a bat.

11 Les Jackson - 2 Tests, one in 1949, the other in 1961, Fred Trueman thought he was the best bowler, day in, day out, in county cricket, but England's attack in the 1950's was hard to break in to.
tony p is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2020, 13:45   #4
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 23,689
Colin Milburn lost his eyesight and Craig Kieswetter may have both had longer England careers had they not had eye damage.

Compton was fortunate to play as many tests as he did. Awful.

I'd put Trott and Trescothick in the frame. Yes, neither had short careers, but then neither played more than about 6 years for England, which isn't a long career either given their quality.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2020, 16:41   #5
sharky
Posting God
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sunny Sussex
Team(s): Sussex, England
Posts: 12,081
Obviously Kevin Pietersen. Onions is a good shout, as would be Tremlett who I thought in his short golden period he was as hard a seamer to face as anyone in the world but his body and mind weren't quite all there. Prior could have played a load more Tests if they hadn't been so preoccupied with Read v Jones for so long. Of course there's Joe Denly too.
__________________
She was like a candle in the wind...Unreliable
sharky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2020, 17:20   #6
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 23,689
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
Obviously Kevin Pietersen. Onions is a good shout, as would be Tremlett who I thought in his short golden period he was as hard a seamer to face as anyone in the world but his body and mind weren't quite all there. Prior could have played a load more Tests if they hadn't been so preoccupied with Read v Jones for so long. Of course there's Joe Denly too.
I'm not sure Prior debuted overly late, he was also dropped as well for Ambrose for a while.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2020, 17:29   #7
Hector
Established International
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Southampton
Team(s): Deportivo Finance, Hampshire, Berkshire
Age: 41
Posts: 3,321
Robin Smith: only 60 odd tests. Binned cos he couldnt play Shane Warne unlike his England team-mates of course.

Dean Headley: bit of a leftfield suggestion. Averaged 27 with the ball from his 15 tests which is not too shabby.

To be honest there's probably a few players from the Illingworth / late 90's era that would have prospered in different times.

Would also throw in Chris Read and James Foster, casualties of England's quixotic quest for an English Adam Gilchrist.
__________________
www.yahooovercowcorner.wordpress.com


@YahoooverCC
Hector is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2020, 17:38   #8
Prince of Denmark
International Cricketer
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bermondsey
Team(s): Surrey CCC, Dulwich Hamlet FC, England
Age: 54
Posts: 2,621
Of the various players already mentioned:

Paul Terry comes into a similar bracket to Lloyd, broken arm in his second Test aged 25 and never recalled.

Carberry may be unlucky but his best years coincided with England having the likes of Trescothick, Vaughan, Strauss, Cook and Trott holding down regular places in a mostly winning team.

Agree regarding Robinson/Athey although they're a similar age and played a similar number of Tests in total; I can't recall whether they played much together or Athey was getting picked instead of Robinson.

Compton is a funny one, unlucky to be dropped but fortunate to be recalled some time later. I saw him in Championship cricket around the time of his recall and thought he looked a shadow of the batsman I'd seen shortly before his initial call up 4 or 5 years earlier.

Shah was one of the most consistently reliable batsmen in Championship cricket for at least a decade, made a good impression on his debut, then got totally ignored before bizarrely getting pigeonholed as a white ball specialist by England selectors. He was belatedly awarded a few more Test caps when past his prime.

Robin Smith could be placed in the same category as Trescothick and Trott, discarded almost a decade before the end of his county career with a Test batting average of 43 at a time when England hardly had an embarrassment of riches.

Read and/or Foster should certainly have been given more opportunity Picking an inferior keeper for his batting is one of my great bugbears with the modern game.

Many of the pace bowlers mentioned were hampered by injuries making them unavailable at the wrong time; James Kirtley and Kabir Ali might be added to that category. Ellison was sensational in the 1985 Ashes but I think he was encouraged to strive for greater pace (that familiar coaching theory of "imagine how good he could be if he was faster") and broke down as a result. Others such as Bicknell, Watkin and Lewis were probably deemed not quick enough without ever being given a proper chance to prove otherwise.

As a Surrey supporter Martin Bicknell is the stand out for me in this whole debate. Belatedly recalled for the final two Tests at home to South Africa in 2003 more than a decade after his first two caps, he bowled England to a series levelling win on his home ground in the final Test.Unfortunately he was well into his thirties by now and had begun to succumb to niggling injuries that blighted the final three years of his county career before retiring in 2006. However he'd been consistenly brilliant in Championship cricket for four seasons from 1999-2002, in which time Surrey were champions three times and he was completely free of injury. How he was never picked during that time I'll never know; he was the obvious successor to Angus Fraser, whose last Test came on the 1998/9 Ashes tour. He also became a very effective number 8 batsman in his lager years, ending his career with a first class average of just under 25 (3x100s, 26x50s) to go with his bowling average of a fraction over 25

I'd also like to add the name of Ian Ward. Another regular in that very strong triple-championship winning Surrey side, perhaps he was never going to be more than ordinary at Test level but he was very unlucky to be picked to bat well down the order for a two match series agaisnt a Pakistan side featuring Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain and Shoaib Akhtar; then having retained his palce for the start of the Ashes he found himself facing Warne, McGrath, Lee and Gillespie in their prime before getting dropped after the third match of the series.
Prince of Denmark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2020, 18:40   #9
sharky
Posting God
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sunny Sussex
Team(s): Sussex, England
Posts: 12,081
Shah had problems with his arms cramping up from holding the bat so tight from what I remember plus was a bit of a donkey in the field and running between the wickets. Certainly talented enough to have played more if he had been round in the current era.
__________________
She was like a candle in the wind...Unreliable
sharky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2020, 19:30   #10
Prince of Denmark
International Cricketer
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bermondsey
Team(s): Surrey CCC, Dulwich Hamlet FC, England
Age: 54
Posts: 2,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
Shah had problems with his arms cramping up from holding the bat so tight from what I remember plus was a bit of a donkey in the field and running between the wickets. Certainly talented enough to have played more if he had been round in the current era.
I wasn't aware of the cramp thing. He wasn't great in the field, which made it all the more odd that he seemed to be a regular in the ODI team for several years without getting picked for any Tests.:
Prince of Denmark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2020, 19:46   #11
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 23,689
What about Simon Jones?
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2020, 20:38   #12
square leg umpire
Posting God
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: yorkshire
Team(s): yorkshire
Posts: 10,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
What about Simon Jones?
Wasn't his career finished by injury?
square leg umpire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2020, 20:48   #13
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 26,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by square leg umpire View Post
Wasn't his career finished by injury?
Perhaps I should have been clearer that I meant unlucky not to be selected more as he clearly would have played more if fit.
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More
Chin Music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2020, 21:06   #14
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 23,689
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chin Music View Post
Perhaps I should have been clearer that I meant unlucky not to be selected more as he clearly would have played more if fit.
Ah, ok. Although Onions's test career was scuppered by badly timed injuries, I think.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2020, 21:19   #15
Aidan11
Harmisonesque
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Somewhere cold and wet
Posts: 42,698
Mark Ramprakash should have played more but he just couldn't seem to transfer his county talent to test level.
Aidan11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2020, 00:51   #16
Prince of Denmark
International Cricketer
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bermondsey
Team(s): Surrey CCC, Dulwich Hamlet FC, England
Age: 54
Posts: 2,621
I've come up with the following from my 45 years of following Test cricket (number of caps in brackets):

Rob Key (15): Always looked a cut above the rest at county level, would possibly have got more chances a few decades earlier when there was less emphasis on fitness.

Michael Carberry (6): Had to wait a long time for his chance when vacancies were scarce, but harshly dropped after playing every Test on a difficult Ashes tour.

Owais Shah (6): Like Carberry, he played one Test on the Subcontinent, then had to wait a long time for another chance by which time he was past his prime.

Clive Radley (8): Played in an era when mature county players would often be called up following good Championship form, he was well into his thirties when he made his debut but got injured at the start of an Ashes tour the following year and was never picked again.

*Brian Close (22): Incredibly played Test cricket aged both 18 and 45 but with only 20 more matches in between. A legendary county figure at both Yorkshire, where he featured in a string of Championship winning sides including several as captain, and Somerset where his leadership helped transform them from no hopers into a combative and exciting team featuring an eclectic mixture of superstars and bucolic characters who looked like they'd stepped off the village green. England won 6 of the 7 Tests in which he was captain.

+James Foster (7): I've gone for him over Read simply because he had fewer chances and played his final Test aged just 22. He possibly had the more combative temperament for Test level too.

Rikki Clarke
(2): Possibly blooded a bit too soon although did well enough on tour in Bangladesh but took a long time to fulfil his immense potential at county level. I'd actually have picked him ahead of Sam Curran two years ago, that's how well I felt he was bowling for Surrey at the time, although the latter grasped his opportunity pretty well.

Martin Bicknell (4): As I re,arked earlier on the thread, he was belatedly recalled for the final two Tests at home to South Africa in 2003 more than a decade after his first two caps and bowled England to a series levelling win on his home ground in the final Test. However he'd been consistently brilliant in Championship cricket for four seasons from 1999-2002, in which time Surrey were champions three times and he was completely free of injury. How he was never picked during that time I'll never know; he was the obvious successor to Angus Fraser, whose last Test came on the 1998/9 Ashes tour.

Jon Lewis (1): A very consistent opening bowler during a long county career, he seemed to be twelfth man on a number of occasions before finally playing his only Test against Sri Lanka but never got another chance.

Graham Onions (9): Seemed to be unlucky with a couple of injuries at inopportune moments but all the same it felt like he could have been recalled ahead of various others on several occasions.

Peter Such (11): Played in an era when a variety of spinners seemed to rotate in and out of favour without fully establishing themselves, he might have been picked ahead of Croft or Salisbury on more occasions if not the gifted but fragile Tufnell.
Prince of Denmark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2020, 07:28   #17
MRNC4.0
Established International
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Melbourne
Team(s): Victoria
Posts: 3,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan11 View Post
Mark Ramprakash should have played more but he just couldn't seem to transfer his county talent to test level.
I'd say 52 tests is a pretty generous sample size. If anything he was lucky to have played as much as a specialist batsman averaging 27.
MRNC4.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2020, 07:38   #18
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 26,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRNC4.0 View Post
I'd say 52 tests is a pretty generous sample size. If anything he was lucky to have played as much as a specialist batsman averaging 27.
The utterly weird thing with him is that he had a decent record against Australia but was pretty much garbage against everyone else.
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More
Chin Music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2020, 07:52   #19
MRNC4.0
Established International
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Melbourne
Team(s): Victoria
Posts: 3,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chin Music View Post
The utterly weird thing with him is that he had a decent record against Australia but was pretty much garbage against everyone else.
12 tests for 944 runs @42, but averaged below 32 against everyone else. That is rather weird.
MRNC4.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2020, 08:11   #20
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 26,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRNC4.0 View Post
12 tests for 944 runs @42, but averaged below 32 against everyone else. That is rather weird.
It certainly wasn't a lack of talent that let Ramprakash down. It was always considered a psychological thing. He barely scored runs against Zimbabwe, whereas there were many FTBs who could utterly fill their boots against minnows but get found out against good sides. Possibly weight of expectation dragged him down and he perhaps didn't have the expectation against the Aussies? That can be the only thing that makes any kind of perverse sense.
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More
Chin Music is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:51.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© Cricket247.org