Cricket 24/7  

Welcome to the Cricket 24/7.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. There are also more forums available to members, such as the Lounge - where members chat about just about anything under the sun except cricket!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   Cricket 24/7 > Cricket Discussion Forums > The Kim Jones Domestic Cricket Forum
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar Casino Articles Terms of Use Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 18th January 2018, 17:31   #21
Summer of '77
Legendary
 
Summer of '77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London-Essex
Team(s): Kent, Essex, Surrey Stars
Posts: 8,922
Promotion + relegation = More competition was very much the selling point for Two Divisions and was largely lapped up. I was never wholly convinced and, eighteen seasons on, remain undecided. I can't honestly say that any given game I watch these days appears any more competitive in intent than those I witnessed in the last century. For sure, there are far fewer 'meaningless' end of season matches, with all the drama that promotion & relegation produces. Then again, I've been to numerous games this century in which one side is so far behind after the first innings that it treats its second dig as a 40 over thrash to seemingly get the defeat finalised as quickly as possible and earn an early finish and the fourth day off.

And this last point may be important. It's a congested season with many matches to play, some considerably more rewarding and glamorous than a Championship encounter. To blame the County Championship for all of its failings is a bit like blaming the FA Cup for not being the supreme competition it once was. Outside influences have to be considered. 60 years ago, if a chap wanted to make a living in county cricket and possibly gain international recognition, there was only one competition in which he could set out his stall. Now there are others, better rewarded, offering the chance of glittering contracts elsewhere in the world, often played in front of big crowds and television. If the Championship has become slightly less 'do or die', is it really any wonder?
Summer of '77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2018, 18:02   #22
sharky
Posting God
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sunny Sussex
Team(s): Sussex, England
Posts: 10,881
It depends on what problem you are trying to solve. If it's simply to stop smaller counties losing their best players, then it's a good idea. Is that really what English cricket should be concentrating on, or trying to create an elite of the best players playing the most competitive cricket possible?
__________________
She was like a candle in the wind...Unreliable
sharky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2018, 18:12   #23
B@sil
County 2nd Team
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Worcester
Team(s): Worcestershire
Posts: 217
This is the McLaurin plan recycled, 20 years on.
B@sil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th January 2018, 09:27   #24
Arachibutyrophobic
International Material
 
Arachibutyrophobic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreKent View Post
Yorkshire have put forward their own vraiation on the three conferences theme, with the club's CEO Mark Arthur explains like this:-




“Currently we’ve got one to 18 through the two divisions.

“One, two and three in the first division would go into Conference A, B and C

“Then, four into A, five into B and six into C and so on.

“You have your three conferences of six, you play five home and five away within that.

“Then you go into Conferences D, E and F (for the final five games of the season).

“The first and second teams in A, B and C would go into D.

“You take your points forward with you and for the last five matches of the season. The three teams who were first play three home games and the teams who were second play two.

“You take all your points forward and you get your eventual champions and one through to 18.

“We’ve advocated a large sum of money for the eventual winners to give it real traction(£1 million). And like the Premier League in football, money goes to 15th.

“Even in Conference F, when you’ve got teams who finish fifth in A, B and C, they are playing for something meaningful.

“If you finish 16th, 17th or 18th, you don’t deserve anything.

“You would play 15 games.

“The first lot of five come in the early part of the season, then the next lot of five finishes by the middle of August. Then you have five slots from then until the end of September to finish it off.

“There will be a real finale to the end of the season."
So he's not still serious about promotion then? (Pet will understand.)
Arachibutyrophobic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th January 2018, 10:26   #25
D/L
Legendary
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Leeds
Team(s): Yorkshire CCC & England, Wakefield Trinity RLFC, Leeds Carnegie RUFC
Posts: 8,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreKent View Post
10 group games, then play-offs for the top placed counties in the three conferences to decide the championship.
So, to add to the near inevitability of the weather having an effect on the outcome of the Championship, the ECB have decided to add the random factor of the relative strengths of the groups and the play-offs between the winners of them.

Nice work, ECB.
D/L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th January 2018, 11:56   #26
WeAreKent
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 838
Quote:
Originally Posted by D/L View Post
So, to add to the near inevitability of the weather having an effect on the outcome of the Championship, the ECB have decided to add the random factor of the relative strengths of the groups and the play-offs between the winners of them.

Nice work, ECB.
No, the ECB hasn't decided anything.

And if you read the Yorkshire plan (which has merely been submitted to the ECB), the strength of the groups is not random.

The Yorkshire plan also means 15 games rather than the current 14 as after ten games all teams go into three new conferences, based on their performance over the first ten games, and the results over the last five games will determine positions 1-18, with prize money all the way down to 15.

I don't suppose the ECB will like the idea of increasing the amount of four day cricket. But I thought you would be supportive of it?

There are other versions of the conference system knocking around which do not involve increasing the county programme to 15 matches but the Yorkshire proposal is the most satisfying I've seen.
WeAreKent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th January 2018, 12:12   #27
Arachibutyrophobic
International Material
 
Arachibutyrophobic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,513
How about two divisions of nine? Everyone plays each other home and away. Two up and two down at the end of every season.
Arachibutyrophobic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th January 2018, 12:47   #28
WeAreKent
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 838
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachibutyrophobic View Post
How about two divisions of nine? Everyone plays each other home and away. Two up and two down at the end of every season.
We tried that and as a result half a dozen counties have been reduced to almost minor county status, marooned forever in the lower tier as all their best players leave for first division clubs - which sadly means the gulf keeps on getting wider and wider.

That led to reducing the first divison to just 8 elite teams and eventually it will mean the likes of Leics ,Derbyshire, Northants and may be even Kent and Glos, would drop out of the CC and only compete professionally in the white ball competitions.

So if we want to preserve 18 f/c counties, a different system is required.

There are some , of course, who say 18 f/c counties playing red ball cricket is too many and would like the number to be reduced to, say 14, or even 12.
WeAreKent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th January 2018, 13:37   #29
D/L
Legendary
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Leeds
Team(s): Yorkshire CCC & England, Wakefield Trinity RLFC, Leeds Carnegie RUFC
Posts: 8,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreKent View Post
...if you read the Yorkshire plan (which has merely been submitted to the ECB), the strength of the groups is not random. ...
Any grouping decided on a basis other than merit must introduce an element of chance in addition to that already imposed by the weather.
D/L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th January 2018, 14:02   #30
Arachibutyrophobic
International Material
 
Arachibutyrophobic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreKent View Post
We tried that and as a result half a dozen counties have been reduced to almost minor county status, marooned forever in the lower tier as all their best players leave for first division clubs - which sadly means the gulf keeps on getting wider and wider.

That led to reducing the first divison to just 8 elite teams and eventually it will mean the likes of Leics ,Derbyshire, Northants and may be even Kent and Glos, would drop out of the CC and only compete professionally in the white ball competitions.

So if we want to preserve 18 f/c counties, a different system is required.

There are some , of course, who say 18 f/c counties playing red ball cricket is too many and would like the number to be reduced to, say 14, or even 12.
So that wasn't about freeing up time for more hit and giggle?
Arachibutyrophobic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th January 2018, 15:42   #31
1000yardstare
Posting Goddess
 
1000yardstare's Avatar
JA 851 Cummins 149 Wagner 147 TCurran 21 SCurran 15
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: London
Posts: 20,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachibutyrophobic View Post
How about two divisions of nine? Everyone plays each other home and away. Two up and two down at the end of every season.
1000yardstare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th January 2018, 15:45   #32
WeAreKent
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 838
Quote:
Originally Posted by D/L View Post
Any grouping decided on a basis other than merit must introduce an element of chance in addition to that already imposed by the weather.
It's not chance, though is it? The Yorkshire proposal is about making the three conferences as equal to each other as possible - and it is based on merit.

One, two and three in the first division would go into Conference A, B and C, Then, four into A, five into B and six into C and so on - thus you have the same balance of stronger and weaker teams in each group.

The groups for the T20 Blast and RLC are far more subject to "chance" than Yorkshire's plan for three conferences in the CC.
WeAreKent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th January 2018, 10:08   #33
D/L
Legendary
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Leeds
Team(s): Yorkshire CCC & England, Wakefield Trinity RLFC, Leeds Carnegie RUFC
Posts: 8,450
I suppose the Yorkshire proposal, as described, represents the groupings most based upon the previous season's achievement (if not actually upon merit), but will they be adopted?

For example, the counties may be looking to secure fixtures against local rivals. In Yorkshire's case, the odds against there being a Roses fixture in the group stages of the first season under the new system would be about 2:1 against. There may also be other fixtures that other counties may wish to secure.
D/L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th January 2018, 10:16   #34
gmdf
County Pro
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by D/L View Post
I suppose the Yorkshire proposal, as described, represents the groupings most based upon the previous season's achievement (if not actually upon merit), but will they be adopted?

For example, the counties may be looking to secure fixtures against local rivals. In Yorkshire's case, the odds against there being a Roses fixture in the group stages of the first season under the new system would be about 2:1 against. There may also be other fixtures that other counties may wish to secure.
One way to lessen the impact of there being fewer games featuring local rivals would be to draw the groups for the CC first, and then draw the groups for other competitions afterwards but ensuring that they are (totally) different to the CC groups for that season - so if there is no Roses Match in the CC, there will be one in the T20 or 50 over competition, the same for Kent vs Essex, Somerset vs Gloucs etc.

For what it's worth, if this type of 3 division CC was created, the worst thing would be to have the same groups each year. Local rivalries are fine, but as a Kent supporter I want to watch more than just the nearest few counties every season.
gmdf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th January 2018, 10:37   #35
WeAreKent
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 838
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmdf View Post

For what it's worth, if this type of 3 division CC was created, the worst thing would be to have the same groups each year. Local rivalries are fine, but as a Kent supporter I want to watch more than just the nearest few counties every season.
If you had read the Yorkshire proposal , you would see that is dealt with - the composition of the three conferences would change each season, because it would be based on the 1-18 placings of the final table the previous season.

Indeed, if you read the Arthur/Moxon schema, the final batch of five games each season would be played in a different group to the first 10 games of the season - and therefore against a different set of teams.

If the Yorkshire system was adopted, it would give a far greater spread of opponents than the present two division divide, under which it is almost guaranteed that the six weakest counties - Kent, Northants, Leics, Derby , Glamorgan and Glos - are repeatedly forced to play each other home and away every season.


The drawback of the Arthur/Moxon proposal is that Kent's travelling supporters would be understandably fed up if they were unable to watch their team at Lords, the Oval, Chelmsford and Hove and had to incur hotel bills travelling instead to Durham, Old Trafford, Trent Bridge and Headingley.
WeAreKent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th January 2018, 11:43   #36
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,088
I fear that opening up the Championship again to the weak div 2 sides won't lead to them suddenly being competitive and they might just routinely sit at the bottom of the table while the stronger counties compete for the title.

A way of redistributing talent would be needed. Perhaps all overseas/kolpak/out-of-contract players could go into a draft each year with the previous seasons worst side getting first pick and so on.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th January 2018, 11:46   #37
gmdf
County Pro
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
I fear that opening up the Championship again to the weak div 2 sides won't lead to them suddenly being competitive and they might just routinely sit at the bottom of the table while the stronger counties compete for the title.
.


Like Essex last season?
gmdf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th January 2018, 12:58   #38
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmdf View Post
Like Essex last season?
There will always be exceptions, but for the most part counties like Leics, Glam, Glos, Nhants, Derbys and Kent have barely featured in the top tier in the last decade and are often off the pace in chasing for promotion in Div 2 (which is also why many relegated counties bounce back within a couple of years).
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th January 2018, 13:01   #39
Hector
Established International
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Southampton
Team(s): Deportivo Finance, Hampshire, Berkshire
Age: 39
Posts: 3,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreKent View Post
If you had read the Yorkshire proposal , you would see that is dealt with - the composition of the three conferences would change each season, because it would be based on the 1-18 placings of the final table the previous season.

Indeed, if you read the Arthur/Moxon schema, the final batch of five games each season would be played in a different group to the first 10 games of the season - and therefore against a different set of teams.

If the Yorkshire system was adopted, it would give a far greater spread of opponents than the present two division divide, under which it is almost guaranteed that the six weakest counties - Kent, Northants, Leics, Derby , Glamorgan and Glos - are repeatedly forced to play each other home and away every season.


The drawback of the Arthur/Moxon proposal is that Kent's travelling supporters would be understandably fed up if they were unable to watch their team at Lords, the Oval, Chelmsford and Hove and had to incur hotel bills travelling instead to Durham, Old Trafford, Trent Bridge and Headingley.
We're forever being told that nobody watches the county championship.
__________________
www.yahooovercowcorner.wordpress.com


@YahoooverCC
Hector is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th January 2018, 13:25   #40
gmdf
County Pro
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hector View Post
We're forever being told that nobody watches the county championship.
The suggestion I made (to ensure more variety in fixtures by ensuring the groups for all white ball games are totally different to those for the CC, however that is decided) would mean that if the CC had few local matches for any particular county, then they should, at least, have a few white ball 'local' games.

For what it's worth, I'm not saying that the Yorkshire proposal is without merit, and I can see some advantages. It may well be worth exploring further.

But I'm worried by the alternative versions of a '3 division CC' being aired that suggest that this should be regional - which would mean one would soon get bored with playing the same opponents year in, year out.
gmdf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:05.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© Cricket247.org